I get almost no hands. Then I would mention Hour of Power, and I get a few timid hands wanting to help me out saying, "They thought they knew that. Maybe when they're homesick from church or their grandma had watched something like that. Just how fleeting some religious movements can be, which seemed monumental at the time. I often tell my students that religious change tends to be glacial. But in some ways, the story of the Crystal Cathedral and its vulnerability shows you that there are moments where there are radical changes that you don't even realize are happening as the ground shifts beneath our feet.
Our book is certainly a caution to church leaders today. Schuller had immense confidence that he had figured out church. He had figured out how to lead it. He had figured out the gospel for today.
He had figured out how to secure a strong future for Christianity. Not just in America, but the whole world. Unfortunately, I think that there are many things that Schuller didn't understand and didn't even bother trying to discern. I think if there is an ultimate virtue that we really want to promote through this book it's the virtue of humility. I really did enjoy that conversation with Professors Mulder and Marti. They wrote a very interesting book.
People who read the book are likely to read it in different ways. Some are probably going to read it simply because of their interest in Robert H. As we discussed, that's probably a dwindling number, simply as a matter of the actuarial tables. People are getting older.
A lot of the people who were deeply involved in and interested in the ministry of Robert Schuller aren't even with us anymore. I think there'll be some people who will read the book because of the idea of megachurch strain, with the megachurch such a major phenomenon across the religious world, especially the Christian world.
We are trying to figure out what does that mean? What is the shape of the church for the future? What does a megachurch look like in the future? There are some incredible lessons to be learned by the Crystal Cathedral. But on the other hand, I'm a theologian. The bigger story here to me is theology or the lack of theology, the transformation of what had been a theological message into primarily a psychotherapeutic message, the abandonment of the gospel in any clear sense, the repudiation of the classic Christian understanding of sin.
That means, of course, the reformulation of the gospel and all the rest. It becomes, when it comes to Robert H. Schuller, a parable of what I would call a different kind of liberalism. It's not the hard liberalism of a Harry Emerson Fosdick or someone who just outright denies the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.
It's a softer liberalism that is simply not theological, that avoids any kind of theological rough spots, theological hard edges, any kind of definition. It's really clear that Robert Schuller was embarrassed by and felt restricted by the confessional reformation theology of the Reformed Church in America.
But he also wanted the credentials. He wanted the respectability that came with being an ordained minister of the oldest religious denomination, Christian denomination in the United States. He wanted that. He wanted both worlds. As I discovered in my own small way, he wanted the respect of everyone across the theological spectrum. Of course, that's impossible if you take theology seriously. I can remember reading it and wondering how this could, in any sense, be the product of someone who was actually a Christian minister.
Not to mention a Christian theologian or someone writing a theological work. It wasn't theological, and that was the point. But you didn't have to read between the lines to see in the book of repudiation of Augustinian, Pauline, New Testament theology, reformation theology as seen in the historic creeds and confessions of reformation Christianity, the gospel as preached in almost every megachurch of my knowledge, when I was a young man, in the United States.
The Gospel I heard preached was a gospel about sin, and Christ, and salvation. It began with a biblical understanding of sin. But that's exactly what Robert Schuller was trying to deny and replace with something else. At various times in his ministry, he tried to argue that he wasn't as radical as he often appeared.
He would say things like, "Well, some have said I've called for a new reformation. Robert Schuller said that in the subtitle of his book.
To say that he was slippery is an understatement. He said in that conversation in the s with theologians like Kenneth Kantzer and David Wells that he believed in hell. He tried to make clear he believed in a traditional Christian understanding of hell, except that was incompatible with just about everything he said, everything he wrote, and everything he preached.
In this book, Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, he wrote these words, "Sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another human being of his or her self-esteem. But that's, of course, the opposite of what the scripture tells us.
In the very same paragraph he writes, "And what is hell? It is the loss of pride that naturally follows separation from God, the ultimate and unfailing source of our soul's sense of self-respect. One of the parables I would underline when it comes to Robert Schuller is the fact that there are different ways to reject the Christian faith in its doctrinal and confessional substance.
You can deny it with outright denial, or you could basically deny it with either silence on crucial issues, a lack of addressing these issues whatsoever from the pulpit. Professors Mulder and Marti make very clear that when it came to Robert Schuller's preaching, he explicitly did not want to preach on anything he defined as controversial.
I would put it differently. I think there's good evidence that Robert Schuller never wanted to preach on anything that his audience would not want to hear. Was Robert H. Schuller a heretic? Technically speaking in the history of the Christian church, a heretic is primarily one who obstinately rejects a doctrine central and essential to Christianity.
The issue is that Robert Schuller never faced a church court on this issue. Responsibility for that would have fallen to the Reformed Church in America. Huge questions about that. But then again, most denominations face some very huge questions about a lack of theological accountability for the ministers in their midst.
But judged on the impact of his ministry and the substance of his writings and preaching. What came out was heresy, not the hard heresy of the theological liberal in Heidelberg.
But rather the softer liberalism that came from a preacher preaching under a lot of glass in Garden Grove, California. My mother-in-law had it right when years ago, when Robert Schuller was on television, she described him as Schuller the jeweler. What about all that glass, the 10, panes or so of glass in the Crystal Cathedral designed by one of the world's most famous architects, Philip Johnson, the great symbol of Robert Schuller's ministry.
It's now a cathedral, still a cathedral. Well, a cathedral in a whole new sense. Robert Schuller and his wife Arvella are buried there on the campus. A parable in one person, everywhere you look, and in every way you can conceive, that was Robert H.
Many thanks to my guests, Gerardo Marti and Mark Mulder for thinking with me today. If you enjoyed this episode of Thinking In Public, you'll find more than of these conversations at albertmohler. For more information about the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, go to sbts. For more information on Boyce College, go to boycecollege. Thank you for joining me for Thinking In Public.
Until next time, keep thinking. I'm Albert Mohler. Mulder and Gerardo Marti. Download MP3. Transcript Albert Mohler: This is Thinking In Public, a program dedicated to intelligent conversation about frontline theological and cultural issues with the people who are shaping them.
Albert Mohler: One of the most interesting questions even as we get started here for me is how the two of you came to collaborate on this book. Mark Mulder: Well, Dr.
Albert Mohler: What actually happened here is just as you described, in short, the birth of what became one of the most famous ministries in the world based upon a certain celebrity, and aspiration of success, what was at least claimed in many terms to be a demonstration of success that ended spectacularly in a bankruptcy.
Albert Mohler: Robert Schuller and I were antagonists theologically in the reformed world. Albert Mohler: But I'll tell you, I had no particular insight, as insightful as I would like to think myself to be that what I was seeing then would end in a matter of a decade in a spectacular bankruptcy.
Albert Mohler: Mark, you come from a Dutch Reformed background. Mark Mulder: Not at all. Mark Mulder: Yeah, the reason why I think I never saw him as someone coming out at the same tradition until I was adult because the Crystal Cathedral was somewhat antithetical to my Dutch Reformed experience growing up, very small, plain, unordained, modest church.
Gerardo Marti: There's the additional irony is that Schuller comes from a very unexpected place for what he ended up doing, both theologically and in terms of the building of an actual church, one of the earliest megachurches in America.
Gerardo Marti: That area of being able to understand what is this sentiment that would somehow be able to transition into a Southern California that I understood much better, one that's characterized by mobility, by an ambition, by entrepreneurial impetus, by the ability to purchase property and utilize it in an expansive way, of cars, automobiles, the celebrity and the ability to be telegenic. Albert Mohler: It is a powerful analysis.
Albert Mohler: Yet, if you were to just take a television shot, there would be a lot of similarities between Robert Schuller in his academic gown, which as you say was very carefully orchestrated even right down to the particular tone because he wanted it to look right on television and D.
Albert Mohler: I thought I knew a great deal. Albert Mohler: He was invited to speak, it's a very odd thing, in , in the midst of all kinds of national and denominational controversy. Albert Mohler: Okay. Gerardo Marti: What's interesting is even though people see Schuller as a celebrity, he really viewed himself as a pastor. Gerardo Marti: He began listening to the preachers who seem to have the most attention, the ones who seem to have the most vitality in their preaching, and that's where Norman Vincent Peale came in.
Gerardo Marti: When he started his mission church in Southern California, he immediately appealed to that same sensibility, developed and expanded it and built a mentoring sponsoring relationship with Norman Vincent Peale himself. Albert Mohler: There's some real theological parallels there but they're not the same. Gerardo Marti: Well, that to me is the bridge. Gerardo Marti: I think that once this orientation of how do you then appeal to that business person who is pursuing profit and who is a very ego-oriented person putting themselves out into the world in a competitive manner?
Albert Mohler: There certainly was an incredible commercial, financial aspirationalism, managerial perhaps aspirationalism in all of this. Albert Mohler: But also two different things with Fosdick, one was he understood public relations. Albert Mohler: By the way, the best evidence from Peale is that every time Albert Mohler: But you make a fascinating point, which I have not seen made before in your book.
Albert Mohler: Two things here, that he really was spectacularly successful at harnessing thousands of them. Mark Mulder: Yeah. Mark Mulder: The local classes of reformed churches had suggested a farmer who could be the architect for Schuller's new church, because he had built barns.
Albert Mohler: You mentioned in the book, you document how he used it when he wanted respectability, and supposed evidence of accountability, which he repeated many different points over and over again at length. Albert Mohler: He actually seeks and receives United Methodist credentials at one point, as a way of saying, "I'm not like those other people who are just unaffiliated and unaccountable.
Albert Mohler: But as you indicate, this really wasn't a strategy. Albert Mohler: But you mentioned J. Mark Mulder: Right. Gerardo Marti: One of the things I want to add is Schuller stumbled on a strategy to unite strangers at church. Gerardo Marti: Is that the modern church, even though it was called a community church, by him, is really about how can we get more strangers in the building in order to give it a shot? Albert Mohler: That's like a Ponzi scheme.
Gerardo Marti: In my mind, as I've read the memos and understand his approach, he saw himself as incredibly strategic and highly rational. Gerardo Marti: The ability to access credit as well as access wealthy Christian businessmen, executives, together became a part of the success that I don't think he always talked about.
Mark Mulder: I think also he assumed that what is doing is universal, and that it could be implemented anywhere in the United States that there Mark Mulder: He thought that this could be done anywhere. Mark Mulder: He did see it. Albert Mohler: The Crystal Cathedral, that wasn't its original name. Albert Mohler: Now, just to tell the story organizationally, things got rocky, especially say between and in that period.
Albert Mohler: I had spoken at a conference in Southern California, in which I was just extremely critical of Robert Schuller's theology. Albert Mohler: I have to say it was incredibly impressive. Albert Mohler: In your book, by the way, you demonstrate how Albert Mohler: But if he's talking to Larry King, I mean, he affirmed universalism, rather than historic Christian understandings of the gospel, I mean, repeatedly.
Mark Mulder: I think there's an earnestness that he really wanted to be all things to all people in some ways. Mark Mulder: In the book, we also have instances where he's having a conversation with Lewis Smedes, and now passed reformed theologian who taught at Fuller Seminary for a long time, and then actually taught at Calvin where I'm at for a while as well.
Albert Mohler: He basically says contradictory things in one conversation. Gerardo Marti: But I know that Schuller saw himself as a brilliant theologian. Gerardo Marti: There's that aspect to it. Gerardo Marti: His hope was that he would be able to build the strength of the church and have the church live on well past his lifetime at the same time that the Hour of Power would dwindle. Gerardo Marti: Even though he never solved that problem, it is remarkable that he was able to build a year ministry with such strength and persuade so many people of being able to manage things in this way that it really became the default of what clergy see as church management today.
Albert Mohler: That makes a lot of sense. Albert Mohler: The problem is getting all that in sync. Albert Mohler: You invoke several terms that I think are very helpful. Mark Mulder: Sure. Mark Mulder: But you also have to have the right constituency. Mark Mulder: One of our arguments is we Albert Mohler: Gerardo, you make the point in the book that growth is a key factor here. Gerardo Marti: Very fair to say. Gerardo Marti: But what we don't often see and what I think Schuller underestimated is you can stretch the capacities of your church internally.
Gerardo Marti: Schuller already produced incredible strain just internally to the congregation out of the things that he wanted to accomplish in his ministry.
Albert Mohler: I grew up in South Florida in my high school years. Albert Mohler: Then I came into the influence also of other pastors in the area. Albert Mohler: But it's not the same as it was in the s and '80s with Jim Kennedy, national television.
Albert Mohler: The same thing is the point you make about the Crystal Cathedral. Albert Mohler: Now by the time you get to Schuller and the end of his ministry, the average age in the congregation is creeping hauntingly towards his own. Mark Mulder: There's a lot. Mark Mulder: Rick Warren's genius was, well, people don't shop like that anymore. Gerardo Marti: Schuller had a message that he deemed to be universal, and one that would touch everyone.
Albert Mohler: The difficulty is Albert Mohler: It's not impossible. Albert Mohler: Let me ask you both. A landmark church that was home of a long-running religious broadcast and renowned Easter pageant is reopening tomorrow as a Catholic church. More than 12, people are expected at the services. The 78,square-foot church, which takes its name from the 11, panes of glass on its outside, is now known as Christ Church,.
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